Hainer and Dreesen discuss the future | OneFootball

The past inspires, the present obliges and the future fascinates. On the occasion of Bayern's 125th anniversary, president Herbert Hainer and CEO Jan-Christian Dreesen discussed innovations, internationalisation, sustainable club management and the social role of football in the coming decades with futurologist Professor Dr Sascha Schmidt, Felicia Mutterer, co-founder of Viktoria Berlin, and Younes Zarou, Germany's most successful TikToker, in members' magazine ‘51’.

A discussion about Bayern’s future

Professor Schmidt, you are a futurologist. What are the biggest areas of innovation in football for the coming decades?

Professor Sascha Schmidt: “With generative AI, data is already omnipresent - even in sport. Digital twins of players are about to be realised, which will have a significant impact on training and stress management and on how squads are put together and players are developed. Technology will make processes more efficient and open up new opportunities for growth, even outside of sport. However, it alone will not change the fundamentals of football. What is much more exciting is how people deal with it. Young fans have different media usage behaviour and different needs. Football is becoming more and more part of the entertainment business and has to compete for attention - with music, films and gaming. This will fundamentally change the football world.“

Felicia Mutterer: “It's impressive how technological expertise is developing sport. Bayern is one example of this with technology-optimised, cycle-based training for its women's team. At Viktoria Berlin, we also use tracking data to support our players individually. When we started in 2022, we introduced digital ticketing. At the time, many people asked why this was necessary in the Regionalliga, but our aim was to involve the fans directly. We also use AI to create content and stream all home games on YouTube to provide access to people everywhere.”

Herbert Hainer, Younes Zarou and Professor Schmidt after the exchange.

Younes Zarou: “I can only emphasise how important entertainment is for the younger generation. Young people's attention spans are getting shorter and shorter - I can see that even with my 11-year-old sister. In the Kings League, we have reduced the playing time to 2x 20 minutes. I personally think 90 minutes of football is perfect, I grew up with it, but the young target group sometimes has different expectations. There could be a change.”

Herbert Hainer: “You have to differentiate between what happens on the pitch and everything that happens around the pitch. Technology certainly helps, for example with diagnostics and match preparation, but it's the players themselves who make the decisions on the pitch. We are already seeing the environment - ticketing, the stadium experience, entertainment - changing dramatically. But as far as the game itself is concerned, to take it to the extreme, I don't see a cloned Jamal Musiala, and I honestly don't have the imagination for robots on the pitch at the moment either. What we fans love are unpredictable moves - human ones. Even mistakes, human ones, they're part of the game.”

Jan-Christian Dreesen: “In my opinion, the new small-sided leagues can and will never replace traditional football on a one-to-one basis. Such formats offer entertainment, like the ‘Budenzauber’ of old, and undoubtedly have their own appeal. However, they stand on their own and are not an alternative, but rather a supplement to traditional football.”

Zarou: “I agree. Small-sided leagues will not replace the Bundesliga or the Champions League, because fans want football in all its breadth and with all its emotions. But add-ons like in American football in the NFL, such as volume meters at half-time, would pick up the young community.”

FC Bayern CEO Dreesen: “We can represent our values credibly because they are part of our DNA.”

Hainer: “There are generally two groups in football: young people who want more entertainment, and fans for whom tradition and values play a decisive role. This coexistence is what makes football special. I can well imagine, for example, that small-sided league events inspire young people so much that their path eventually leads to big football - 90 minutes of Bayern against Real Madrid, Champions League, under the lights, together with 75,000 in the stands. That simply has magic and appeal.”

Zarou: “The key lies in striking a balance. The values of football must be preserved, but entertainment elements can appeal to the younger generation. You don't have to change everything immediately, but in 10 years' time we will certainly see more entertainment.”

Schmidt: “I’d like to go back to robotics, Mr Hainer. Since 1997, thousands of developers have been working on the ‘RoboCup’ to develop a team of autonomous robots by 2050 so that it can challenge and defeat the reigning football world champions. At the moment, the robots’ movements still seem a little awkward, but we shouldn't underestimate the rapid development of technological innovations, especially in our time. What still seems futuristic today could be reality in 10 years’ time.”

Hainer: “I don't want to give the wrong impression. I'm always interested in innovations. I still remember exactly how the slide rule was introduced when I was at school and my father said it was the end of the world. Nobody would be able to do their own maths anymore, logical thinking would be lost. But the earth continued to spin. I just said earlier that I don't have the imagination for that at the moment. And I'm convinced that the fans would rather cheer for a Jamal Musiala or Thomas Müller than a robot.”

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Mr Schmidt, how much show will football tolerate, what do the fans expect?

Schmidt: “The biggest challenge for clubs will be to find the balance between tradition and innovation and to successfully manage the generational change. The Alpha and Z generations often have a greater need for active participation. In the USA, for example, there is ‘Fan Controlled Football’. There, fans even vote on which moves the team executes. The coach then implements the decision. That may still be completely unthinkable in football at the moment, but passively consuming a 90-minute game may no longer be enough to reach a broad fan base at some point.”

Hainer: “In general, you have to be careful that football doesn't drift off into a purely fun format. And one thing is also clear. Bayern is always open to innovation, but we would never agree to anything that alienates the fans from our club and from football. Technology and entertainment can enrich the environment, but I think intervening directly in the game is problematic.”

Dreesen: “Football is also so popular all over the world, with young and old, big and small, because it has always retained its essence. The beauty of this sport lies in its simplicity and in the joy that the game conveys. There are certainly also differences between the people in the stadium and those watching at home or on a stream. Traditional stadium-goers value the experience they know, the atmosphere, the passion and the community that only a visit to the stadium can offer. They don't want a format that has been radically changed at its core.”

Zarou: “I think such approaches are better suited to fun leagues like the Kings League. I was born in 1998, so Gen Z, and I don't see that for classic football. Full-size football has its own deep-rooted appeal.”

Hainer: “In addition to the Allianz Arena, the BMW Park is an interesting example, where we have an LED video floor at our basketball games. This allows game scenes to be directly re-enacted during a time-out and the spectators can be involved. Such innovations enrich the experience, but don't change the core of the game.”

Felicia Mutterer is a media entrepreneur and co-founder of Viktoria Berlin, one of the most exciting projects in women's football. Over €1.2 million were raised to bring the third division club into the Bundesliga. Mutterer runs the podcast ‘Sportsidols’ together with Ariane Hingst.

Bayern has always set standards. How open-minded can, must and should a club be in the future?

Dreesen: “Bayern tries to maintain a balance. We preserve our roots, cultivate our traditions and also draw strength from them. At the same time, we are never really satisfied - this inner restlessness drives us. We know that we have limits to growth in Germany, which is why we focus on internationalisation and modern technologies. In the past, you had to travel the world to reach fans. Today, thanks to digital infrastructure and AI, we can reach people all over the world, even very specifically.”

Mutterer: “That's typical Bayern. For decades, the club has been exemplary in recognising that stagnation is death and a pioneering spirit is a success factor. This requires openness, also in dealing with technology and digitalisation. Both will shape and develop football even more in the future.”

Hainer: “Our innovative strength has always set standards. Uli Hoeneß, for example, practically invented merchandising in football. Our planned expansion of the performance centre at Säbener Straße also shows that we are always taking the next step. This centre will be state of the art and enable us to keep up with the top international clubs. The key to our success lies in the balance between tradition and innovation.”

Younes Zarou is the most successful TikToker in Germany with more than 56 million followers. He is followed by 18 million people on Instagram and over 26 million on YouTube. The 27-year-old is a big football fan, has already accompanied Bayern on the Audi Summer Tour and looks after the Youniors F.C. team in the Kings League.

It used to be said that people invested in ‘stones and legs’. Will we also invest in ‘chips’ in the future? Could the next ‘king transfer’ not be Harry Kane, but a technology?

Dreesen: “Definitely not. What happens on the pitch remains crucial. Of course, infrastructure has changed. Today it also includes innovative technology and AI. Nevertheless, success on the pitch remains central, and fortunately people are at the centre of that.”

Hainer: “A good example is our Campus, which we inaugurated in 2017. With an investment of €75 million, we have created the basis for the development of young talent. We are now seeing the first successes with players such as Jamal Musiala, Aleksandar Pavlović and Josip Stanišić.”

Zarou: “As a fan, I have to say we love to see players like Musiala, Pavlović or Stanišić who come from our own youth. That will also remain important for the younger generation. Top international transfers like Harry Kane are impressive and important for prestige, but identifying with players from our own ranks is something unique. In the past, Bayern wasn’t a leader in terms of youth development, but now the club is where it should be. Young players are given opportunities, which is not easy in a star ensemble. Nevertheless, they manage this balancing act very well. That will also count for a lot in the future, because values such as identification are becoming increasingly important to the new generation.”

FC Bayern president Herbert Hainer: “We would never agree to anything that alienates football from the fans.”

Bayern's membership development reflects a strong sense of social responsibility. How important is this for the future?

Hainer: “In 2024, we gained over 40,000 new members, more than ever before in one year. And that's despite the fact that we fell well short of our sporting targets. So there are other factors that make us attractive: our striving for success, economic stability and social responsibility. We are involved in initiatives such as Red against Racism, make donations in crisis situations such as last year's floods, and we seek dialogue with our fans. In uncertain times, people want support and community. Bayern is like a family. We currently have 382,000 members, and it should be a realistic goal to reach 400,000 in our anniversary year.”

How important will social responsibility be in the future?

Zarou: “The human element and the family atmosphere are extremely important. As a creator, I realise how much community and cohesion are valued. People want to identify with these values, and Bayern does a great job of it. Initiatives like Red against Racism will play an increasingly important role in the future because young people expect their club to take a social stance more than ever before.”

Mutterer: “Taking a stance can be decisive, and that is honoured. Bayern has an emotional strength that is often lacking in politics. This creates a responsibility that should be faced with humanity and common sense by taking a clear stance on important issues. Incidentally, this also has positive effects on your own image. The social commitment of brands and companies is increasingly perceived positively in Germany and is considered important. Around half of Germans are in favour of the commitment and attitude of companies.”

President Herbert Hainer and CEO Jan-Christian Dreesen invited guests to Säbener Straße to exchange ideas.

How political can, should or must a club be in this day and age?

Schmidt: “Bayern may be a medium-sized company, but the expectations placed on it are completely different. The club is under constant public scrutiny. Football has a pervasive power that reaches all levels of society. As the industry leader, the club has a special responsibility that must be lived authentically. It's not enough to put on modern labels such as ‘sustainable’ or ‘inclusive’ - the values have to be genuine.”

Dreesen: “That's exactly the point. With Red against Racism, we haven't invented anything fundamentally new at Bayern, but we have now put into a framework what our club has always stood for thanks to figures such as Franz Beckenbauer and Uli Hoeneß – to be a social, cosmopolitan, tolerant club. We can represent these values credibly because they have been part of our DNA since our foundation.”

Hainer: “Red against Racism is not about simply holding up a slogan over and over again. The aim is to have a lasting effect. The fans realise that. And as Ms Mutterer mentioned, politics doesn't have the emotional penetrating power that a club like Bayern has. We see it as our task to take responsibility in society. Of course, we don't want to get involved in general politics. But in times when divisive forces are corroding our democracy, a club like Bayern has to stand up and take a stand in certain situations. I emphasise this again and again: not today, not tomorrow, and especially not with us!”

Professor Dr Sascha Schmidt is an economist and heads the Centre for Sports and Management at the WHU business school in Düsseldorf. He is the editor of the book ‘21st Century Sports: How Technologies Will Change Sports in the Digital Age’ and has already scientifically analysed the genius of Thomas Müller with his students.

Where will Bayern be in 25 years' time? And what must never change?

Hainer: “Bayern should still be regular champions in 25 years’ time. As Jan-Christian Dreesen said, in the end, what counts is what happens on the pitch. I hope that we can maintain the triad of sporting success, economic solidity and social responsibility. That's not always easy. For example, when we light up our Allianz Arena in the rainbow colours of LGBTQI+ or celebrate Shabbat with the Jewish community, there are also critical voices. But in the end, it's the fact that we put up with it and stand our ground that makes the difference. If Bayern continues on its path, I'm not worried about this club.”

Dreesen: “Felicia Mutterer and Younes Zarou said it perfectly earlier: it's about humanity - and in my opinion also about togetherness. For me, those are the big ‘Ms’ in ‘Mia san mia’. If we keep that in mind, there's not really anything else to add to the club.”

Zarou: “Integrating Thomas Müller into the management team and winning the treble again - that's what I'd like to see in the coming years. I hope this conversation is brought up again in 2050 and checked to see what happened [laughs].”

Schmidt: “I hope that Bayern will still stand for international excellence in 25 years’ time - as a figurehead for Germany, even beyond sport. The club embodies an image of our country that we often find more difficult to convey in other areas. That should be both an incentive and a task.”

Mutterer: “Bayern should stay on the ball at all levels - sporting, social and cultural. I would be particularly pleased if, in addition to the successes of the men's team, the club continued to do everything it could to be a real flagship in women's football. It would be great to look back in 25 years and say: ‘Back then we were in the middle lane, today we are at the highest level and regularly win the Women's Champions League.’ So, let's get into the fast lane, also with the women's team.”

The extended conversation can be found in members’ magazine ‘51’